Comments on: Editorial: The Madness of Crowds http://www.mmogamer.com/07/12/2009/editorial-the-madness-of-crowds Wed, 25 Jan 2012 00:29:30 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Jeffrey Philipp http://www.mmogamer.com/07/12/2009/editorial-the-madness-of-crowds/comment-page-1#comment-4267 Jeffrey Philipp Mon, 13 Jul 2009 20:45:48 +0000 http://www.mmogamer.com/?p=2214#comment-4267 It's definitely true that there are some genuinely good posts made on game design on these forums, I was largely trying to point out that they happen to be few and far between. I think that they most difficult part about this debate is that there is a certain degree of subjectivity in the whole topic. How much weight do you put in design decisions from the community who are clearly splintered in what they prefer, and how much of each groups preferences can you safely implement before you create something unplayable. At what point can you say to a group of players "Perhaps this isn't the game you want to play"? I'm of the opinion that it's not simply a numbers game, and you end up doing what the largest group wants, but that's just me and I think that designers are free to make certain decisions based on their artistic vision of where the game should go. You do make a very solid point in that last paragraph about the Ivory Tower of game designers, but I think it's probably more likely to end up with something playable than if you were to listen to even a tenth of the suggestions from the WoW forums. Perhaps WoW is a separate case though, since it's population puts it in a whole different league than any other game at this time. Like I said, I'm pretty forgiving of designers, but you're probably right, compromise is likely to be the most successful tactic. :) It's definitely true that there are some genuinely good posts made on game design on these forums, I was largely trying to point out that they happen to be few and far between. I think that they most difficult part about this debate is that there is a certain degree of subjectivity in the whole topic. How much weight do you put in design decisions from the community who are clearly splintered in what they prefer, and how much of each groups preferences can you safely implement before you create something unplayable. At what point can you say to a group of players "Perhaps this isn't the game you want to play"? I'm of the opinion that it's not simply a numbers game, and you end up doing what the largest group wants, but that's just me and I think that designers are free to make certain decisions based on their artistic vision of where the game should go.

You do make a very solid point in that last paragraph about the Ivory Tower of game designers, but I think it's probably more likely to end up with something playable than if you were to listen to even a tenth of the suggestions from the WoW forums. Perhaps WoW is a separate case though, since it's population puts it in a whole different league than any other game at this time. Like I said, I'm pretty forgiving of designers, but you're probably right, compromise is likely to be the most successful tactic. :)

]]> By: Jeffrey Philipp http://www.mmogamer.com/07/12/2009/editorial-the-madness-of-crowds/comment-page-1#comment-4265 Jeffrey Philipp Mon, 13 Jul 2009 20:33:36 +0000 http://www.mmogamer.com/?p=2214#comment-4265 Ah yes, the inevitable "The devs obviously play X class" posts. Those are almost a whole other topic on their own. It is rather strange that people would consider that such outright bias is not only possible but apparently frequent. It's true that there are creative uses of game mechanics. Sadly some of those do fall under the banner of bugs. There's a lot of different ways to make that distinction, but I can't think of any particularly foolproof way to make the right decision. It's like software engineers sometimes say. "It's not a bug, it's a feature!". Ah yes, the inevitable "The devs obviously play X class" posts. Those are almost a whole other topic on their own. It is rather strange that people would consider that such outright bias is not only possible but apparently frequent.

It's true that there are creative uses of game mechanics. Sadly some of those do fall under the banner of bugs. There's a lot of different ways to make that distinction, but I can't think of any particularly foolproof way to make the right decision. It's like software engineers sometimes say. "It's not a bug, it's a feature!".

]]> By: Ferrel http://www.mmogamer.com/07/12/2009/editorial-the-madness-of-crowds/comment-page-1#comment-4261 Ferrel Mon, 13 Jul 2009 14:27:30 +0000 http://www.mmogamer.com/?p=2214#comment-4261 It takes a lot for players to realize just how difficult it is to be a designer. I did an experiment and ran a free EQ1 server for my friends a while and that was extremely challenging. The best prepared quests and encounters were often quite easily undone because I couldn't hope to test alone in a timely fashion what my friends could as a group. I also found that even people who genuinely cared about fairness found ways to game my systems. It taught me a lot of respect for design in a short amount of time. I also learned just how important it is to have quality testers and QA professionals (something that big shops sometimes forget). With that said, however, it also taught me how to recognize bad design quite swiftly. Yes, I do believe there is such a thing as bad design, not just mistakes. I don't want to give too much credit to the posts you're talking about but sometimes they are dead on. Designers, like with any profession, can be average to below average and retain their jobs. Simply remaining employed doesn't necessarily mean you are good at what you do. It comes down to sifting through all the angry posts and the one or two good ones. I am a firm believer that developers should listen and interact with players. They can (and should) learn a lot from their customers. After all, we are the ones paying. I think these days management is concerned with who funded the project and glosses over that we are the ROI. On the design side I do have to say that I've experienced an Ivory Tower syndrome with MMO designers a few times over the years. They can become territorial and so focused on their part of the pie that seeing anything else is near impossible. The game has to be their way or no way and that is a very dangerous mistake. If an encounter is not fun to the players and is near impossible to defeat it doesn't matter that designer 12B wants it his way. It needs to be changed. That is, of course, not the usual though. I am just pointing out that there is an extreme on both sides and the best thing to do is compromise! Or just listen to Ferrel! That is good too! ^_~ It takes a lot for players to realize just how difficult it is to be a designer. I did an experiment and ran a free EQ1 server for my friends a while and that was extremely challenging. The best prepared quests and encounters were often quite easily undone because I couldn't hope to test alone in a timely fashion what my friends could as a group. I also found that even people who genuinely cared about fairness found ways to game my systems. It taught me a lot of respect for design in a short amount of time. I also learned just how important it is to have quality testers and QA professionals (something that big shops sometimes forget).

With that said, however, it also taught me how to recognize bad design quite swiftly. Yes, I do believe there is such a thing as bad design, not just mistakes. I don't want to give too much credit to the posts you're talking about but sometimes they are dead on. Designers, like with any profession, can be average to below average and retain their jobs. Simply remaining employed doesn't necessarily mean you are good at what you do.

It comes down to sifting through all the angry posts and the one or two good ones. I am a firm believer that developers should listen and interact with players. They can (and should) learn a lot from their customers. After all, we are the ones paying. I think these days management is concerned with who funded the project and glosses over that we are the ROI.

On the design side I do have to say that I've experienced an Ivory Tower syndrome with MMO designers a few times over the years. They can become territorial and so focused on their part of the pie that seeing anything else is near impossible. The game has to be their way or no way and that is a very dangerous mistake. If an encounter is not fun to the players and is near impossible to defeat it doesn't matter that designer 12B wants it his way. It needs to be changed. That is, of course, not the usual though. I am just pointing out that there is an extreme on both sides and the best thing to do is compromise!

Or just listen to Ferrel! That is good too! ^_~

]]> By: The MMO Gamer http://www.mmogamer.com/07/12/2009/editorial-the-madness-of-crowds/comment-page-1#comment-6754 The MMO Gamer Sun, 12 Jul 2009 19:07:18 +0000 http://www.mmogamer.com/?p=2214#comment-6754 <span class="topsy_trackback_comment"><span class="topsy_twitter_username"><span class="topsy_trackback_content">Editorial: The Madness of Crowds http://bit.ly/t5viu #mmo #mmorpg</span></span> Editorial: The Madness of Crowds http://bit.ly/t5viu #mmo #mmorpg

]]> By: Tahitoa http://www.mmogamer.com/07/12/2009/editorial-the-madness-of-crowds/comment-page-1#comment-4239 Tahitoa Sun, 12 Jul 2009 08:10:39 +0000 http://www.mmogamer.com/?p=2214#comment-4239 Very nice and honest analysis of a problem I encountered many times. Thank you! Very nice and honest analysis of a problem I encountered many times. Thank you!

]]> By: Sean http://www.mmogamer.com/07/12/2009/editorial-the-madness-of-crowds/comment-page-1#comment-4232 Sean Sun, 12 Jul 2009 00:30:08 +0000 http://www.mmogamer.com/?p=2214#comment-4232 I often see players in forums, the official WoW forums being a notorious example, claim that developers make decisions regarding game balance out of personal attachment ("bias") toward one class, playstyle, etc. What bothers me is that in the conversations that ensue, the underlying point that the developers would undermine the integrity of the game in the service of a bias is never contested - the question is only what side they're on and to what extent. Like you, I read these comments nonplussed at the insularity of particular players and the short-sightedness of their perspective. While such players might be able to offer insight into the subtleties of certain game systems - subtleties even the designers haven't anticipated - I imagine that more casual players would offer better insight and feedback about the game as a whole, recognizing that it is both a game and a whole. I often see players in forums, the official WoW forums being a notorious example, claim that developers make decisions regarding game balance out of personal attachment ("bias") toward one class, playstyle, etc. What bothers me is that in the conversations that ensue, the underlying point that the developers would undermine the integrity of the game in the service of a bias is never contested – the question is only what side they're on and to what extent. Like you, I read these comments nonplussed at the insularity of particular players and the short-sightedness of their perspective. While such players might be able to offer insight into the subtleties of certain game systems – subtleties even the designers haven't anticipated – I imagine that more casual players would offer better insight and feedback about the game as a whole, recognizing that it is both a game and a whole.

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